Simon: [00:00:00] Good afternoon and welcome to the conference room. I’m joined by Gilly Netser

Gilly is the Chief Marketing officer of Cyber Security Vendor Perimeter 81. She’s almost 25 years experience of international marketing and marketing leadership to the high tech and cybersecurity space. And is an authority in building multinational teams, establishing new technology categories, forming a marketing machine, marketing leadership, and influencer marketing to drive 50% plus of the business and consistent growth year-on-year

The track record includes marketing leadership roles in startups such as Perimeter 81, Cymulate, Illusive Networks and global brands, including Symantec, SanDisk, and Albert. She’s a passionate advocate for diversity and women in technology. She’s a member of the Forbes Communication Council, a contributor to publications such as Forbes, Helmet Security, [00:01:00] Cyber Security Ventures

IT Toolbox and many more, and is also one of the few CMOs that can claim to have served in an F- 15 squadron and I’m delighted that she’s found time in her, believe me, incredibly busy schedule to talk to us here today, Gilly Netser, good afternoon and welcome to the conference room. Gilly: Hey Simon, great to see you

What an opening

Simon: Thank you very much. So all heroes have an origin story. And you are the hero of our story, so tell me, how did you get from starting out to being the CMO of Perimeter 81? Gilly: Okay. So thank you for the opportunity. I’m really excited to be here with you. So, you know, thinking about, you know, going back, where it all started from, so I was, born and raised mostly in Israel

I spent my high school years actually in New York, where I am actually right now, right this minute, just visiting our office in, in New York City. So I lived there with my family [00:02:00] throughout high school. I graduated early from high school at 17 and moved back to Israel and, this three year episode, you know, in the US gave me a lot, in life

It gave me perspective to size, to culture barriers, to possibilities, new friends. I was really being exposed to a different kind of life in a young age and I think that gave me a lot later on in my career. I moved back to Israel. I spent two years in the Israeli army because it’s mandatory duty

And, I served, as you said, in the operations room, managing it for an F-15 squadron. Again, an amazing experience, that I’m really grateful for. By the way, talking about, you know, diversity. Back then women were not allowed to be pilots. And today they are. And it was like my greatest dream to be a pilot there, but obviously I couldn’t

So I did the next best thing, that I could, which was to manage the operations room. But to them, very proud to say that we have a lot of, women pilots and they’re, you know, amazing. So I had a great [00:03:00] experience in the Army and I worked with really great people sometimes, you know, dramatic and stressful situations

And I think these two experiences, you know, during high school in a totally different country and culture as well as the army, gave me a lot of tools and confidence. And then post Army, I started my professional career in marketing and in parallel, I completed my MBA. And clearly I was a marketing major

So that’s pretty much it, you know, when I was young. And then I was exposed to more and more marketing methodologies throughout, my careers to, tactics and practices and strategies. And of course, marketing in general has developed throughout the years with the digital transformation. I worked in different sized teams, different skill levels, large corporates, like you said, Symantec that had at the time, 20,000 people and also small startups. So today is my fourth startup and my third role as a CMO. I feel very fortunate to have spent the last 20 years in cybersecurity, marketing, and I learned so [00:04:00] much everywhere I went

In the past few years, I also enjoyed some consulting and being an advisory board member, at other startups, and contributor to technology publications, as you know. And I think that the last thing I would say is that I volunteer as a mentor to students in universities in Israel, to help, you know, educate the next generation and, you know, be able to contribute or give any kind of information that, that I can to help young professionals. Simon: So what was it that led you, to the cybersecurity industry, the outset? I mean, looking at your career from starting out and being at, larger organizations like Albert and SanDisk, it looks like you kind of either decided very early on or just kind of migrated into cybersecurity

What was it about cybersecurity that inspired you then, what is it that continues to inspire you today? Gilly: Wow. It was actually really by accident. It wasn’t intentional and it wasn’t called cyber at the time. It was just, you know, security, IT, C4, [00:05:00] ISR, reconnaissance, surveillance, those kinds of words

You know, different kinds of security at the time. And I honestly got there just by chance. I was looking for a, marketing role. I started out as a graphic designer a company in a leading print company called CEX at the time, which was then purchased by Creo. Huge company, then purchased by Kodak

And I was there for four years doing graphic design, videos, multimedia, and managing, you know, or team leading a team of six professionals. And parallel to this, I did my mba and then I just wanted to grow out of it and do more than just that stuff in the marketing communication department

And I just happened to find a job in, you know, in a startup that very quickly got purchased by LB Systems. And so I found myself there. That was the first job. And then, you know, right after that, someone who was managing me, at CEX was actually working as a CMO in a cyber security startup

So she called me in and I went to work for her. [00:06:00] And from here to there, you know, it started becoming something like my forte, something that I come with, something that I have a bit of knowledge in. And from one time to another, even if I was considering, you know, other proposals in different industries, at the end of the day, it always attracted me to go back to this space

I guess, you know, I really love the technology. There’s so much to learn. So heterogeneous, you know, detection solutions and preventive solutions and mitigation solutions and, I mean, it’s such a rich world, so, I stayed

Simon: Great. As we were discussing, you just sort of outlined there, your career really started, although starting with small companies that tended to get, kind of swallowed up by big ones

But certainly in the earlier parts of your career, you were working an awful lot with, you know, significantly larger organizations. Symantec, Albert. I mean these are big. Sandisk. These are big companies. Okay. What do you see as the primary differences that [00:07:00] you experience transitioning from being part of an enormous engine like Symantec, like Albert to then transitioning to startups? From your perspective, It’s a journey a lot of people tend to make. You know, they want to go and work for a startup having worked at big companies. Okay. What were the challenges that you faced or you saw, making that transition? Gilly: Well, I guess people like transitions in general, right? The major thing I see as a difference for a marketeer working in a big corporate is that usually, unless they’re very, very senior, like a CMO or something like that, then usually they just have one angle of the entire thing, right? Either they’re doing the demand generation and even just a portion of it, like, you know, doing just PPC or just SEO or doing copywriting, influencer marketing, et cetera. Media, buy, and so on. They can do, field marketing, they can do channel marketing, they can do product marketing and so on and so forth. I guess the thing is [00:08:00] that when you migrate and go to work for a startup, all of a sudden you have to do everything. You don’t get services from the big corporate marketing, you just have to deal with all of it

And of course, if when the startup is a bit bigger and the company is growing, then again you start to have specialties. But you get to taste more, you get to do more, you get to influence more. And basically from a business perspective, the big difference is that when you work for the likes of the Symantec and other big brands, the brand is already out there

People know the company. It’s like in some perspective for some of the products, it’s more of a cash cow and then maybe you want to like upsell and cross sales. So there is a lot of focus on that. While in the startup, you really need to scale the business. You need to build it from scratch. And this is a big difference because it’s a different kind of marketing and methodologies

You know, you have to create a lot of awareness. You have to do a lot of education. And that’s different from working in a big company. Simon: So let’s drill it down then. So, when you were most [00:09:00] recently, for example, at Cymulate or here at Perimeter 81, as I understand it, the point when you came in, there may have been something of a brand in Israel and maybe a little bit elsewhere, and your primary responsibility was to scale and to build a brand multi-nationally. Okay. Gilly: Are you talking about Symantec or Perimeter? Simon: Either. Okay. So, in those sorts of scenarios, and maybe specifically to one or the other, or another, what steps would you typically take to, evolve or develop or scale a brand from something that’s like known in one particular market or maybe well known, maybe not well known in one particular market to creating a global brand

Gilly: Okay, so it’s a very, very good question. And actually I want to specifically refer to what I’m doing today in the last few years with startups. But I will say that what I’m saying in the beginning can also fit, big brands that don’t sell [00:10:00] in a specific territory. So when I came into Symantec, it was to work on a very specific territory that didn’t have enough marketing and didn’t have enough awareness

Right. Symantec is an American company selling all over the world, but still some territories are less developed. And this is what I came in to do. And, I was there for eight years. So in my time then, you know, I started with a smaller territory and grew and grew until I was leading the marketing for all the emerging countries, in EMEA

Which was about 120 countries, different languages, different cultures. I’m sure you can imagine that, you know, doing marketing in Israel will be completely different than doing marketing for Russia and former CIS, Dubai and Saudi, and South Africa. Like, each of them really pose different challenges from a language perspective, cultural perspective, politics, you know. For example, one of the products in Symantec, which is also a challenge because big companies have a lot of product

So Symantec at the time had like 600 different products. [00:11:00] And as a marketeer, you had to understand the different line of product, which is quite a lot. But some of the products were cloud. So being an American company selling a cloud product, this is something that Russian people, for example, and Russian companies wouldn’t want to buy

So the go to market in Russia was actually. Excluding the cloud products at the time, but putting, that experience on the side, I want to answer your question about, you know, what is it that you really have to do first or, to grow the business or to scale the business? Particularly, you know, for me in cyber. So it’s really first about understanding the market and the target audience

Again, tying back to what I said before about understanding the market in Russia, understanding the market in Israel and so on. In the startups it’s more about, you know, usually they wanna start in the US, but then. UK, the rest of Western EMEA, APAC, Eastern EMEA, and so on. You know, the more the company grows

But basically, no matter where you want to sell, you need to really understand the market, the target [00:12:00] audience. You want to understand the segment that, you know, you are relevant for the industry, the ideal customer profile and in additional stakeholders. What are their pains? What are their challenges? Business and emotional drivers like really get the whole customer settings. And then when you get that, which could be different from one company to another, from one product to another, from one country to another, from one segment or industry to another. But once you get that, the understanding of your company’s offering is very important, right? Even as a market here, and even if you’re not a technology professional, you’re an acting architect, you’re not a programmer. You need to understand the features, the benefits, the use cases and, and what they solve into the total addressable market from a business perspective, the competitive landscape

What are the strengths that the product and the company have and the weaknesses, the opportunities and, and the threats? I mean, this is basic and this is the start for scaling a business. Anything that you will do in [00:13:00] marketing if you don’t know that is like doomed to higher chances of failing

So next come the product market fit. All of these aspects can feature different scenarios and challenges to a business in terms of the product market fit. And change the marketing strategy plan for growth dramatically. So the fact that I’ve spent like the last 20 years in cyber marketing doesn’t mean that I do my job with my hands, you know, tied behind my back

It doesn’t mean that I have a magic wand or a magic growth solution. You’re smiling, but you know, there is a lot of learning, investigation, understanding with the need to understand, you know, what was done so far. What are the goals? Are they aligned with the prospect needs? Is our solution like, it must have or nice to have? Is our sales strategy, land and expand? Or another one, is our pricing competitive or not? Does it fit different segments? Do we have enough sales? And the marketing people, to get a job done. What is the marketing budget? A lot of [00:14:00] questions. And this can often like, determine a strategy, and you would be surprised by what some really great marketeers can do with relatively small budget, but big ideas, and really guts, sometimes to do gorilla marketing that can raise above the noise, with relatively little investment

The point, I guess, is that I think, doing things different and talking to your audience, both hearts and minds, if you know how to do this, it’s half the way, to growth from my perspective. Simon: Right. Okay. So first of all, thank you for that. That was amazing. when you enter into a new market, like for example, when you were talking about your time at Symantec and the challenge of going into such incredibly, the word again, diverse, markets

And you’ve got, like you said, a completely different set of challenges in, for example, Russia than you had in South Africa. Right? At least you have a brand behind you that people will be aware of and that could, I would imagine sometimes be a [00:15:00] positive and sometimes be a negative

Okay. However, when you are coming in to say, for example, South Africa or right now coming into the US with Perimeter to and where you don’t have that brand, Okay. How do you go about making people aware of Perimeter 81 existence? And being able to have those kind of conversations that you are referring to, to understand the market

If people don’t know who you are, how do you get that intel? Gilly: Generating awareness is, you know, it can vary. It’s a different task really, depending on the market and the product and all the questions that I brought up before. But clearly, it’s critical. You can do it in digital, you can do it face to face, you can do it in many different platforms

And it really, you know, it’ll vary. It’s not one answer fits all. Maybe I can give, like three different scenarios of challenges that I faced in terms of awareness and growth, and different management teams or marketeers. That at the [00:16:00] end of the day, this impacts like the go to market and the strategy that you need to apply

So, for example, one company, had a really smart and exciting solution. One of the companies I worked for, we had an amazing brand reputation. Okay? So this is a good start. Like we said, having been belonged to a renowned investor hub and we had tier one customer names, like of the top Fortune 100 and others

Deal sizes would vary between 50K to 7 million dollar, a deal. And, the sales cycle was relatively long, right? Let’s say nine months, 12 months could be even longer for the bigger deals. Most customers were financials and in healthcare and big corporates and some of the, like I said, some of the Fortune 100, but the company had relatively few customers and the product was so, so smart

But at really for the high end of very, security advanced early adopter enterprises that have a lot of risks. For example, banks or huge service providers like retailers or [00:17:00] tail cooperators. Now, how do you create growth for such a company that it’s business is not really predictable or reliable because they are based off very big deals, but for a few deals

So there are limited number of companies. That would prioritize buying it. A single big deal can be the break or make for hitting a target and, if it slips into the next quarter or next year, well, it’s a difficult ground to play in and that will impact how you wanna play in the marketing

So that’s one example. Simon: Right. Gilly: And I think by giving these examples, maybe, you know, I can illustrate, why it’s not just one answer to fit all. Simon: Right. Gilly: But then the other company had a great product market fit. They solved into a need that any company, any security team has and would love to solve into

It’s not a must have solution, but it’s closer to it than the previous company that I mentioned, which was for very developed teams and companies that have a lot, a lot to lose. The use for it was industry agnostic and it would [00:18:00] fit most company sizes. In the second company I’m talking about, they sold to actually any size enterprise, even medium size business, as long as they had a security team and not a 1% show of IT

Simon: Right. Gilly: Price was usually a handful full of 10,000, so like 40K, and the sales cycle was shorter. It was between four to six months. The challenge there, was to break the barrier of really whether it’s essential or optional. And there was a lot of business questions on how to reach growth dilemmas

Like do we develop a product to include more essential features? And so increase the install base and the ARR, or do we increase the product price for renewals, and new customers? Because we were in the lower benchmark of the competition. So do we start selling also to small companies? Who do not have a dedicated security team through an MSSP so that, to have an additional market to scaling

So again, different situation, different, ideal [00:19:00] customer profile in different questions. The last example, is of a company that despite its young age, sells to thousands of customers. Right? If you remember, the first example was very few customers. The second example was, you know, few hundreds. But this one is selling actually to thousands of customers despite how many years the company exists, though, they sell smaller deals to SMBs and small medium enterprises, and the sales turn around is one to two months

Very little time, it will be longer. The beauty is that this solution is a must have. It’s not okay to have, It’s not nice to have. It’s a must have solution, so they don’t have enough awareness. They’re very young, but it’s a relatively not expensive solution. It’s a must have solution. They have thousands of customers

This is a game changer, and so company, like this has other considerations for awareness and for growth and how to move up-market and to consider direct versus, through the channel [00:20:00] versus zero touch sales, is just one of the questions and the challenges. I dunno.

Simon: Okay.

Gilly: I hope that answers the question.

Simon: No, absolutely

I love the way you’ve kind of delineated it down into these kind of three, almost discreet markets and the challenges they would have. So, I guess, the question I would have is. If you were to look at these markets, I know you said that one size sort of doesn’t fit all

Okay. Looking back at your own experiences, when you faced any of these particular challenges, what steps in your own, can you sort of, refer to that you actually took, that took an organization from over here to over here, you know, took them to the next level? Gilly: Yeah. Simon: Okay. Gilly: Mm-hmm

Well, a lot of examples. I’ll give one or maybe two. So one example is, working with influencers, right? Being in the security industry, one of the challenges is getting customer stories, right? Security professionals are not in love with giving customer references because they don’t wanna expose which solutions they use

Also there is always the legal [00:21:00] issues, and so on. It’s not a priority for them, and so it’s very hard to promote, ourselves via references like that. So one of the things that I find companies don’t leverage on enough is, you know, running an influencer campaigns, and that can be done in many different ways

One of the ways that I’ve been doing in the last few years and doing it also right now is contracting with third parties that are reputable and, people look out for agencies like, you know. For example, Sans Institute, they are an education company for cyber professionals

They’re very reputable. They have a lot of knowledge. They have analysts working with them and so on, and I’m working with them to create, you know, different material that I can then promote. That actually, yes, it is paid, however, people count on them to be objective and not be recommending or talking about things in a subjective manner

So the likes of Sans Institute or, [00:22:00] different analyst firms, whether it’s, you know, the tier one like Gartner and Forester, or other, analyst firms that are, tier two or tier three, and so on, different media partners that are also very strong and have a lot of, audience, right? Because again, another challenge is to bring people and traffic to your website. So until they know enough about you and come to your website. And while you grow that with the CEO, and PPC, and so on, you can leverage on media partners to publish stuff on their websites and to their own customers, whether it’s content that they would be featuring and writing or content that we produce and do like content syndication

So this is one type, for example of, you know, third party validation. Another way that I’ve been doing in the last few years is really engaging one on one with the cyber celebrities or influencers. So whether it’s specific analysts that sometimes are freelancers or people who have podcasts and blogs [00:23:00] and a lot of influence and people follow them and listen to them in social media, and so on

So what I do is that I work with them. And, either they participate in webinar, so I just created a webinar series, where every month we have a webinar with an influencer who talks about different things, not about us necessarily. They talk about security and how they see it. It will always have a scent of something that is related to the category I’m playing in, they will not necessarily, most probably not even talk about us

So what they do is help to promote the category and the need and the use cases. And of course we leverage on their, network. And just as an example, October is going to be the, global cyber awareness month. And in that specific month, instead of doing just one webinar, we are going to feature one webinar every week

And each one of those will host a different influencer. So that’s another way to go about it. And there are more, more options for what kind of assets and what kind of [00:24:00] interactions you can do with influencers and cyber celebrities, whether the influencers are people or agencies and so on. So that’s one example

Simon: That’s great. And also, I mean, as you were kind of describing that, I was reminded of, your, Perimeter 81’s, presence, at what kind of at ish, the RSA Conference in San Francisco earlier this year where you hired a hall in a museum around the corner from the show

And, you had a kind of a mini summit there. Gilly: Mm-hmm. Simon: And I think that’s a great, perhaps a good example of maybe a little bit of gorilla marketing, but also, assembling a group of people where, they may not necessarily be familiar with Perimeter 81, but they might be familiar with some of these other organizations

That gives you almost like authority by association, is that right? Gilly: Exactly. It’s a great example of additional type of cooperations. Right. And, at the end of the day, the thought process is to think about the customer and how do we become more relevant for him. So when [00:25:00] I bring thought leaders to webinar that enrich, our prospects and not only talk about us and why they need to buy us, but really giving them value is where I’m coming from

And, similarly at RSA, we’ve cooperated with, another startup, that actually they initiated this. So they initiated doing a conference together and it was an amazing idea and we were hosting panels and, we brought in an influencer, a lady. She’s a writer and she published a book, and she was there to give it out as a promotional item, talking to people, giving them signatures on the books

And, we were just cooperating a few companies. At the end of the day, we were giving an opportunity to people visiting RSA for a different experience where they can meet not just one company, but two and three companies, and it’s, you know, valuable for their time. So, yeah, it’s another way. The whole thing is, you know, really how to crack, for me, something is thinking about [00:26:00] the prospect as a human being and not as a business. So it’s not doing B2B marketing, business to human, B to H marketing. And that will bring up a lot of different ideas. And actually I’m cooking, a new idea that I have and working with my team about it right now, which I think, and again, it’s about how to leverage on people’s networks and how to think about those people that you wanna leverage their networks on from a business to human perspective. I’m so excited for this to, you know, to launch. It’s still in the work so I can’t talk about it, but, would love to share more information with you in the future. Simon: Yeah, well watch the stakes. That sounds very exciting. Gilly: Yes

Simon: So, just to sort of change gears for a moment, you mentioned, earlier and when you were talking about your backgrounds that, when you were in the Air Force, women weren’t allowed to be pilots, so you did the kind of next best thing as, you know, working in the operations room

Now you are the chief marketing officer and I would say probably one of the most [00:27:00] respected women in the cybersecurity world. Okay. So do you feel from how you’ve seen the world evolve over the last 20 something years, do you feel there are enough opportunities and there is enough diversity in the cybersecurity industry? Gilly: This is a topic that is, very important. You know, women in, not to help the women, but really to help the industry at the end of the day. I think that, you know, if you only look at men, you’re looking at half the workforce. And, today we are in a different world where diversity not only of, male and female, is becoming more and more relevant and I’m all for it

I love working in a company that has diversity of all kinds and I think, you know, Israel is very strong about, or became stronger in the last, many years, about diversity with women because they understood that, you know, warfare is moving from the physical to the virtual. Not [00:28:00] exclusively of course, but we need to really have a lot of people, to protect us in the virtual world. And with that, again, if they only count on men, it’s half the workforce. Not only that, you know, we are wired differently. Men and women, we have a different thought process. We bring different value to the table. And, you know, if you have an amazing team of people, all homogenous, they would probably think kind of the same way and, many times to kind of, you know, penetrate or figure out something new

You wanna have different people around the table. So I think with that, it’s really in the interest of every CEO, of every investing company, of every educational, like university to have heterogeneity. To have women and men and other kind of heterogeneous crowd or employees. And, I’m very passionate about it and I’d love to help, in any way that I can, whether it’s in education or brainstorming

I know that, you know, governments not just Israel has a lot of, campaigns and also [00:29:00] funding, in that direction to educate, to incentivize, employers to really hire, women, and allow for the conditions so that both men and women can get the equal, possibility to make an impact and to be there

So I’m all for that. It’s exciting to me

Simon: Great stuff. So what’s next for you and for Perimeter 81? Gilly: Trying to think about it. For me, I feel I’m just, you know, right in the right place, right now. Perimeter 81 is in rapid growth, which is very, very exciting. We have a strong team, in the company and we strive to win this space, rocket race. And in this journey we are fortunate to have the trust of our investors and our employees and partners and customers. And we continue to listen to the market, to this ecosystem that makes the world a safer place. And maybe that’s another reason why I really love this space of security because I do believe we are making the world a safer place

And what we do is that we tweak and we reconfigure [00:30:00] our offering as we evolve based on what the customers are trying to solve for. So it’s our vision to continue and provide a platform and service that offers a radically simple, cybersecurity experience for the modern and hybrid day workforce

The internet is really the new corporate network and the cloud is the new perimeter. So security needs to be, user centric and not physical site centric. And this is what we offer. We offer user centric, secure corporate network over the internet to 2,800 companies right now and still growing

So I feel really comfortable where I am, from, you know, this is the time to be here and to make an impact, and you know. Win this space race together. So I’m all excited and I’m here now. Simon: Great stuff. And if anybody wanted to, reach out to you to work with you or work with, Perimeter 81, what’s the best way for them to do that? Gilly: So we have a lot of job posting on our website, and [00:31:00] anyone can also feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. It’s Gilly with a Y at the end, so G, I, L, Y, Netser. Any questions or anybody wants to, you know, work together, feel free to reach out to me. Simon: Okay, Great stuff. And what are your three tips for someone to be successful? If they were looking to scale their marketing? What are your three tips for someone to be successful? Gilly: Okay. So again, not one size fits all, but, especially by the way, at the time of instability where, we had, you know, in the last three years and still experiencing first covid and then the war between Russia and Ukraine, and implications, on Europe and in the world in general in terms of supplies such an oil, and this another situation impact the global economy

And we see the interest going high and recession and stuff like that. So instability will cost marketing budget to go down and this will impact the tips, right? But still, I’ll give three tips. So one, don’t plan [00:32:00] blindfolded, get your facts right, understand the market, the product, the challenge, et cetera

Like we discussed, you know, before. Enhance your digital presence. It’s imperative. We are living in a hybrid world. People work from anywhere physically, applications, data users, et cetera. Everything is in a combination of on-prem and in the cloud. So digital is key to establishing brand awareness, generating leads, connecting with people, with prospects, with partners , and driving the business

And the third one. There are so many options in digital, acquisition alone offers ppc, search, remarketing, display ppc affiliate marketing media by contents indication STO, podcasts, webinars, virtual events, communities engagement, organic social influencer marketing. Tons of options

Combine different lead types and remember intent programs. And don’t forget to AB test. And when you do all this, don’t forget the [00:33:00] personalization because that takes us back to as much B two H as you can do, to make a difference, to be unique, to raise above the noise, and attract the hearts and mind

Simon: That’s great, Gilly. Thank you so much for your time today. It’s been an absolute joy and a pleasure talking to you, I’ve learned so much, and just. Gilly: Thank you

Simon: Sort of hearing your own story and also how you’ve applied your experience into these key areas and the growth that you’ve achieved. It’s just been such a joy to spend this time with you

And, I wish you, Perimeter 81 every success in the future. So Gilly Netser, I thank you so much for joining us here today in the conference room. Gilly: Thank you. Thanks a lot, Simon.

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