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Simon: [00:00:00] Good afternoon and welcome to the conference room. I’m joined by Chans Weber. Chance is a serial entrepreneur. With over 15 years of experience in the marketing and advertising industries, he founded Agile and Co In St. Louis, Missouri in 2012. With his expertise in inbound marketing, Chans was able to turn a 4 8 3 credit score and a $15,000 loan from his parents into a digital marketing agency that’s closing in on eight figures. In annual revenue. His background in finance, marketing, and online technology has allowed for the success of Agile and CO’s data driven marketing approach, which sets them apart from their competitors and is here to tell us all about it

Chance? Good afternoon and welcome to the conference room

Chans: Thank you very much for having me. It’s good to be here

Simon: Thank you very much indeed. So all heroes have an origin story, and you are the hero of our story. So tell me, how did you get from. Leaving [00:01:00] college. Leaving school too. Yeah. A multimillion dollar advertising agency

Chans: Sure. I had a couple stops right outta college. I was recruited by, a couple of buddies that I went to college with who were a couple years older than me into the financial services industry. So I took, took the job and I actually had some pretty decent success there. But I found myself, you know, making pretty good money

When I say pretty good money, I, I was right around six figures a year, but I was miserable. I absolutely hated what I was doing, I, I just, there’s something about being a 23, 24, 25 year old kid, asking 65 year old people to roll their retirement funds over to you and trust you with them for the rest of their lives

So, I, I, I, I found myself just miserable every day in the job. left that position for recruiting in financial services. And there again, Somewhat successful. I, I hated it even more to be honest with you. So really kind of had these soul searching type of moments. at that point, you know, my income had went down, credit [00:02:00] travels probably, you know, started to happen

Things started to add up. I remember getting a car repossessed one day, went to go to work and the car was gone. Went through just a lot of really rough financial times and strenuous times on my life. A lot of people can relate to that. But really started doing some soul searching on what I wanted to

And started researching online marketing in some way, shape, or form. The first book that I ever read was actually, search Engine Optimization for Dummies. And it’s funny to say that now because I think the algorithm has probably changed about 6,000 times since then. But, read that book, actually started talking to a, another friend from college who was in the internet marketing world

He recruited me into his company to do sales. And I was at, at this pivotal point in life where I’m going, okay. I’m 29 years old. I’ve got a 4 83 credit score. I’ve had cars repossessed. Like if there’s ever a time for me to go do something on my own, it’s right now I was single. I had no children. Like what? What do I have to lose at that point? So that’s when I made the decision to go for it, [00:03:00] and here we are today 10 11 years later

Simon: Great stuff. So when you were coming into your. Client’s world. Okay. What problems are you typically being brought in to solve?

Chans: Yeah, I mean, that’s, it’s a good question. So, you know, I, I have such a wide range of clients

I’ve got everything from E-com clients, you know, that might sell apparel or any type of, you know, product online directly from their website. All the way to, I’ve got what I call the ugly businesses, and I say, Tongue in cheek

The ugly businesses are actually some of my favorites to work with, but, you know, big manufacturing companies that they might sell a specific product that, you know, costs a hundred thousand or $300,000

So I’m working more on lead generation type of deals with them. But really at the end of the day as a marketing agency, the most simplistic way to explain it is, is we are hired. To drive businesses more revenue than they are paying us in cost. Right. It’s really that simple. It’s, it’s the good old ROI 1 0 1 [00:04:00] concept

So, you know, like I said, I can’t pinpoint one thing, but we have everything from clients that really, again, these, some of these ugly businesses, these B2B kind of manufacturing companies who have never really, quote, unquote, come to market, they don’t, they have a very outdated website. They’ve never really like pushed anything digitally

We love taking them from no man’s land into the world that we live in. And all the way from that to, you know, I’ve got a 350 million client that sells medical supplies to everything from veterinarians to dentists and small medical, private practices and things like that. And, and you know, helping them actually sell their products on both e-com and building their relationships on a B2B basis for their sales team

So very widespread and diversified. And I personally like it that way. It keeps me on my toes, it keeps me, learning constantly

Simon: Great stuff. And, and do you see, I mean, you talked about the diverse, clients that you have, right? Mm-hmm. , do you see any kind of common denominators through them in terms of,[00:05:00] when you come in

The ones that you see are really gonna need you help. Right. Do you see any kind of common denominators in those businesses, as in there are certain things that they really ought to be doing that they’re not Yes. Or certain things that they really shouldn’t be doing that they are?

Chans: Yeah. There’s one thing that just immediately popped into my mind when you asked that question

It’s really more sales oriented than marketing oriented. Even though they’re connected, it, it, it, it’s fascinating to me how many businesses have a sales person or a sales team that does not effectively utilize a CRM in some way, shape or form. So as a marketing agency, a lot of times that’s where our, our services end, right? We, we drive a company 25 leads in a month or 250 leads in a month, and then their sales team takes those leads and they try to sell ’em. It’s amazing to me. How hard it is and big of a struggle it is for us to get feedback from our clients on were these leads quality? What leads turn into sales? How much [00:06:00] money of sales worth, you know, did they turn into how much revenue generated? And it’s amazing to me how many businesses that I work with on all different scales, like you would think, these are like startup problems. These are not just startup problems. I mean, companies that are doing 10, 20, 30, 50 million a year in revenue have these problems and, and they can’t answer those questions

So I find myself doing a lot more sales consulting and actually helping them build out systems to help us as marketers understand what is actually turning into business. Right? But that is by far the most glaring problem that I see, which is really hard for me to comprehend. But it, it exists. You know, way, way, way more than you could ever, you know, dream that it exists in the business world

Simon: And when you say, the, the problem, exists way more, are we talking about specifically them not being sales systems in place?

Chans: Correct. Sales systems, yeah. It’s, it’s not even the people, it’s the systems and, and attribution of the process. Of the sale, right? Like where it’s at in the pipeline. Did it actually turn into a [00:07:00] sale or not? Because in a marketer, as a marketer, let’s say we ran a Google Ad. Okay. Joe Schmo clicks on the Google ad. He goes to a landing page. He says, Hey, I’m Joe Schmo. Please contact me about this

I’m interested. Well, that’s great. As a marketer, we would love to know, was Joe Schmo a good lead? Was he a bad lead? Did he turn into a sale? And if so, how much revenue was generated? Because all of that data helps us then reverse engineer that back out through that funnel and go, this was a good or a bad. Investment from a marketing dollar standpoint, right? So the more of that information that we have, and the more that we close that loop per se, from marketing to sales, the better marketers that we can be without closing that attribution loop

A lot of times we’re like flying a plane blind, you know, from our standpoint, we could say, Hey, you’ve got 250 leads this month, but if none of them turn into sales, who cares? , right? But if all, if, if all 250 of them turn into sales, [00:08:00] that’s great. We wanna know that, right? If there’s 50 of them that were terrible and 200 that were great, well that’s great

We wanna know the 50 that were bad more so than the 200 that were good. So we can make sure we don’t duplicate those efforts again, and we reallocate their money accordingly. So again, closing that, what I would call attribution loop between marketing and sales is what makes a marketing team great

Simon: So I love that, by the way

So, So when we talk about systems, we’re not necessarily talking about software and technology. We, we are literally talking about a workflow. This follows this, follows this, follows this, this has to happen, then this, then this

Obviously, in 2022 and beyond, software will,

Chans: software enables that, right?

Simon: Software gonna play a role. But at the end of the day, what I’m reading from what you are, what I’m picking up from what you’re putting down is that it’s all on in good, having the software, but if either A, you haven’t figured out what the software needs to do and to either [00:09:00] automate or replicate just an offline system of, you know, the sales guy has to make this call, do this thing, whatever it is, and then pass that data back to whomever

Okay?

Chans: Yes

Simon: if that’s not happening, then it doesn’t matter what software you’ve got. It’s just the whole process isn’t going to work

Chans: That’s right. And you just hit the nail on the head. It’s the online, the offline aspect of it, right? The, the system can be there, the sales rep can see the lead, he can see Joe’s information, his phone number, his email address

He can do all this. But then if he picks up the phone and he calls him, and that phone is not being tracked through some type of software, that phone call, or he’s not labeling it as a good lead or a bad lead or a sale, or he’s not entering the cost of the, the value of the sale is a better word to use

The value of the sale, that human piece of that connection, if that’s not being done, the human part of it, then the software is irrelevant. It’s just a tool that’s not being used. Right. It’s just a useless tool, essentially. So that is the big thing that I see. [00:10:00] Very consistently within small to medium size businesses

I’m talking sub $100 million, you know, annual revenue type of companies. That just blows my mind. I mean, some of these companies are wildly successful and I’m like, do you know how much more successful that you could be if you just had your sales people spend, you know, 12 seconds per lead to. Enter this information, right? So that, that’s by far one of the biggest pain points that I run into. And it’s very frustrating for us because when we’re, you know, I’ve got clients that spend six figures, multiple six figures a month, and when I’m responsible for that type of budget, and I can’t close this loop to understand, How good of a job or how poor of a job essentially that I’m doing

It’s very frustrating cuz again, back to my knowledge, I’m kind of just flying a plane blind. I don’t really know, like it could look great on my end, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s resulting into sales. So again, closing that loop is everything

Simon: Right? So when the loop is closed

Chans: mm-hmm. ,

Simon: What happens next? Okay, so when we talk about [00:11:00] that being a problem, let’s, let’s, magically make that problem disappear so the sales guys are

Chans: Sure

Simon: Recording the information is being tracked as being passed back to you. Okay. Something that we talked about before we jumped on the recording. You mentioned the term agile marketing, okay

Chans: Mm-hmm

Simon: And if Agile marketing is anything at all, like, agile development, it’s about, you know, to use, I think it’s, I think it’s a Gary V expression failing fast. Okay. Yeah. So how does that, how does that interface with, with, with the kind of interface between sales and marketing and

Chans: Yeah

Simon: Getting that feedback

Chans: that, that is ultimately why we shifted to an agile marketing model, which is essentially the same as agile development. It came from that same concept. We’ve kind of tweaked it and made it our own, in our own way, but the, the model and the concept of it in general is the exact same

So painting this picture again, okay? If we have a client that is [00:12:00] running Google Ads and we’re doing search engine optimization, and we’re doing Facebook ads and we’re doing email marketing, all of these things have a cost associated with them, right? So if we are fully controlling, or I should say, if we’re fully able to see the sales attribution back to the marketing effort, then we can start to quantify things so we can say, We spent, and I’m just throwing numbers out there, we spent $5,000 on Facebook ads and it generated $50,000 in sales

We spent $10,000 on Google Ads, and it only generated $25,000 worth of sales. Well, what would you do? Right. We probably need to flip those budgets, or we at least need to start some type of process to start feeding more funds into the higher ROI investment. So as an agile marketing agency, essentially, that is exactly what we do

We are constantly on the fly and moving funds accordingly. Really based off of two main indicators for our clients. The first [00:13:00] and foremost is obviously the data, which summarizes the, \ example that I just gave. Follow the money, right? Follow the revenue. So that’s step one. Piece two of that is, is needs

So a client might come to you and say, Hey, we’re launching a new product, right? We need to go build out a new website page, new landing pages, new ads, new ad copy. Well, that’s a need. We need to use their money to go do that

But really that’s it. It’s those two things. What is working and what do we need to do? And some months there might not be anything that’s quote unquote needed to be done, and we’re just following the data and moving the money accordingly. So one thing that makes my team different just in general on how we function as an agency is. A lot of agencies, and this is what we used to do. To be fair, we’ve been on this model for six years now

So prior to that, what we would do is we’d just go build a 12 month plan for a business. We’d say, you know, we’re gonna put $4,000 a month into Facebook ads, $8,000 a month into Google Ads, this much into seo. We would just go run that play. Well, the problem is, is if pieces of that play didn’t work, we had this contract and we were just like [00:14:00] stuck in doing this and providing these services to see it through

It’s just, it doesn’t make any sense for anybody, mostly the client. So now we meet every single 30 days, and I still do this to this day, even with the size that my agency’s grown to. I meet with my account managers and my COO every single 30 days for our first and the 15th of the month clients, and we go through the data of every single one of them

I feel like that keeps me fresh. It keeps me in touch with what we’re doing, so I don’t become just such a ceo. I want, I wanna be a marketer, right? Not just a ceo. So we continue to do that and we allocate, we essentially recalibrate or reallocate our clients’ funds every single month based off of those two things, needs and data

Simon: Right? So is there any particular, I mean you talked about Facebook ads, Google Ads, seo, right? For somebody who is just kind of coming into digital marketing for the first time, either they’re a fledgling agency or

Chans: Sure

Simon: They are. That they’re trying to do it for themselves. Okay. A little bit. if they had a [00:15:00] limited budget

Where would you start off? Would it be equal distribution? Would you put more into one or the other? Is there any particular methodology that you would follow when you are just starting out, perhaps with a new client yourself?

Chans: Sure. So there’s definitely not like a, a play to run for everybody. It’s not like, Hey, I would start with Google Ads,

Simon: right?

Chans: Or, hey, I would start with Facebook ads. The way I would break this down is I’d kinda reverse engineer your question a little bit. When market, when you look at marketing online specifically, you really have two different buckets that you can fall into. One is what I would call intent driven marketing. If your toilet is leaking, you need a plumber

Problem and solution. You go to Google, you search plumber, plumber, near me, plumber, XYZ city. Wherever you’re located because you need a plumber, you have a problem and you need a solution. There’s a very big difference between that and audience driven marketing. So intent driven marketing and audience driven marketing are two buckets, right? Your two [00:16:00] buckets. Okay. So intent driven, let’s start there. Is more so like Google, right? So I have a problem. Google’s a search engine that provides me that solution. Audience based marketing is, let’s take, an apparel company. So you have an apparel aligned that let’s say, you know, politics are so divisive in our world right now that speaks to one political party. Okay, well, you can utilize targeting from an audience perspective to go find people, let’s just say liberals in the United States

You could go find people that are liberals in the United States that that apparel line of liberal apparel would speak to. I would not wanna go target conservatives. Okay

Simon: So maybe I’ve got a t-shirt that promotes. I dunno. Something on one side or the other of the political department. Correct

Chans: Correct. Yep

So I wanna go target the people that would actually buy it, right? If it’s a liberal, a liberal clothing line, they’re not gonna, conservatives aren’t gonna buy that, right? They’re on the other side of the fence. So I wanna go target liberal folks for that clothing line. So I’m targeting an [00:17:00] audience, but nobody needs that t-shirt

Right,

Simon: right

Chans: It’s, it’s not a need. There’s not a problem. That’s not a solution to a problem. So sure, somebody could go on Google and they could look for a quote unquote liberal T-shirt, but pretty uncommon. You’re more likely to show them a message, show them a picture, show them something that appeals to them visually on something like Facebook

As they’re scrolling or Instagram, they see it, they resonate with it. They click and buy, but that’s not, there’s no intent there that’s just, Hey, these are the people that might like this, so let’s go cast a net and hope we grab a couple percent. Intent driven problem solution. Think Google, Bing, search engines in general

I have a problem. I go look for it. There it is. I have an intent. Audience based, think social media, Facebook, Instagram, et cetera, where we can visually show them something that they would be interested in based on their interest. That’s how the algorithm of Facebook essentially works, or these social media [00:18:00] platforms and try to pull them that way

So it’s really, everything falls into two buckets. So bring this back. To answer your question full circle. Every business would be different, right? So, but the first thing I would wanna identify is, is which one of these buckets

Really shows your business more than the other. Now, back to my plumbing situation, it doesn’t mean the plumber can’t market on Facebook or social media in general

He can, but the plumber is much more likely to convert sales from somebody that has a leaking toilet and needs a service and needs help right now. Then he is by running ads on Facebook and he could, I could, I, I could be throwing my feed right now and see a plumbing ad, but if I don’t have a toilet leaking, I don’t really care about the plumber

Right? If I don’t have a problem, I don’t really care. So it’s more of a branding play for them there. So all of this is inter universal, right? It can all, it can all cross between the two. But to really answer your question, where would you start? I would have to identify which bucket they’re more likely to sell in per business first

That’s where I would start

Simon: Right. Okay. And, and, and as [00:19:00] you go through, creating, whether it’s Facebook ads or Google ads, it’s interesting you made the comment earlier. About when you bought the very first book SEO for Dummies, the algorithms changed

Chans: Yeah

Simon: How many thousands of times since then. Right. And we keep hearing, you know, in, in the, in the news and, you know, just sort of, you know, in the echo chambers of social media that all go, Google’s changing its algorithm again

Facebook’s changing its algorithm again

Chans: Mm-hmm

Simon: So how do you, as a marketer, and how does your team keep up with the changes so that your ads are gonna be seen by the right people. I, I guess my question is, is it a constant form of trial and error, right?

Chans: Mm-hmm

Simon: where your testing and refining and testing and refining and testing and refining, or is there a formula that, you know, if we do that, that, and that it’s gonna work?

Chans: Yeah, I, I think it’s a combination of both. So, as a leader of my company, I do a ton of reading. Where every morning [00:20:00] when I drink my coffee, I’m reading. I have half a dozen news, essentially outlets in the digital marketing world that I’m reading the latest and greatest from. So I pass that along to my team to keep them educated on what’s going on

Of course, they read as well, but I, I really feel like that’s my responsibility to make sure I keep my people up to date with what’s going on, because the changes really never do stop. So that’s, that’s piece one. Piece two is, you’re exactly right. So much of what we do is truly trial and. And that’s why, you know, where we started with that attribution loop of bringing sales and connecting it back to marketing is so important because we can be trying a whole bunch of different things, but if we don’t actually know what is making money, we’re just kind of trying things

Right. So, so yeah. I mean, there is a piece of it though that is trial and error. You know, quick story. We have a, a very large client spends over six figures a month, and all of a sudden their Google ads over the last couple of months of performances really went down and we started to make some change

Really couldn’t figure out why there was nothing. This, this client’s been with us for [00:21:00] six years, so this isn’t something new. But we, we really have been struggling to figure out what it was. We tried split testing different pages. We tried like reteaching Google’s algorithm, what a good lead was compared to a bad lead

And, and eventually the, the performance just kept dropping, kept dropping, kept dropping. And my COO put a piece of code in on a landing page that essentially retaught the algorithm of Google Ads. What a good lead was compared to a bad lead. Instead of splitting into a landing page, we just rewrote the code to do it automatically and all of a sudden the performance over the last four days had just shot through the roof and we weren’t doing anything wrong prior to that

It was just a different way to do it where we were essentially trying to manipulate. What we were trying to do, however, it wasn’t working because there’s a lot of things. I don’t control Google’s algorithm, right? We, we just tried to work within the parameters of it, but there’s a lot of it that’s an unknown at the end of the day

So, you know, that is a perfect example of trial and error. And we were probably ready to get fired by that account because it, the performance had went so far down, but now it’s actually coming out on the other side of it, and it’s [00:22:00] probably gonna be better than it’s ever. So just more quality leads than ever before

This is a very sophisticated client that does track every single lead that does bring attribution back, which is amazing for us. But you know, you, you hit the nail on the head there. A trial and error is always a piece of what you’re doing. I actually tell people that if you’re not testing with 10% of a client’s budget, then you’re not trying

You’re, you’re stagnant. You have to be testing, you have to be trying new things. You can’t find the next win if you don’t try. Right. You can. You can’t just stay stagnant. Eventually that will catch up with you

Simon: So in many ways as we kind of talking through that, it sounded to me very much like, kind of drilling for oil, you can have all the geologists

Chans: Mm-hmm

Simon: the best geologists with you saying that the soil samples all suggest the oil might be here

Chans: Sure

Simon: But until you sink the drill into the ground, you never get them out

Chans: Right

Simon: And you can sink the, the drill into the ground. And it could be that the sweet spot is three feet to the left,

Chans: Sure

Simon: Two feet to the right, whatever it is

Right? But until you actually sink that [00:23:00] drill in and the first 10 times could not quite get the yield that you want

Chans: Yep

Simon: But then, but only through knowing that and getting the results and the testing and so on, you then sink at the 11th time and that’s when you really do strike oil

Chans: Yeah. Absolutely. You know, I think experience obviously comes into play, right? A geologist with 50 years under his belt compared to five days is not the same person, right? So, you know, we are the geologist in your analogy. At the end of the day, obviously our risks are a little more calculated. We’re not just putting a blindfold on and drilling a hole somewhere and hoping for oil, however, Yeah, sometimes we do drill that hole and sometimes it does come up dry, right? So we do have to drill another one and, and that’s marketing. You know, I, I would tell you that that’s just marketing in general. I don’t care if you hire an agency. I don’t care if you have an internal marketing team. I don’t care if you’re running branding campaigns, traditional marketing, digital marketing, it doesn’t matter

You’re going to have losses. The key is, is to have way more wins than the losses and to learn from the losses. That’s the other big thing that I would say. When the losses come, why didn’t this work? And how, how do we make sure we don’t make this mistake again? Because it is, the losses [00:24:00] will happen inevitably

So it again, how do we learn from those and make sure that we don’t make those again

Simon: So in your, again, when you are starting out with a new client, do you tend having done this exercise of, are we going down, which of these two buckets are going down, right?

Chans: Mm-hmm

Simon: and you’ve identified the appropriate bucket

When it comes to things like split testing and trying new things, the outset, is it a little bit of let’s throw as much different kind of as, as many dots at the board that our budget allows to see what sticks and then we know, Okay fine. These few seem to work, those didn’t. So next month we’ll refine, refine, refine

So we’re not really expecting much in say, months one to X

Chans: Yeah

Simon: But then we’ll get it better and better. Or is there something perhaps a little more strategic than that

Chans: Yeah. So again, I think experience comes into play, right? So at this point, I don’t have a niche that’s out there that I haven’t worked with in something that’s at least relatable, right?

Simon: Right

Chans: But we [00:25:00] actually take a different approach outta the gate, instead of casting this super wide net like you’re talking about, and try to narrow it down. I actually try to start small and grow into it. Because what I don’t want to do is I don’t want to just spend a bunch of my clients’ money on a whole bunch of ads and clicks and things that I know aren’t turning into anything

So I use the analogy with my team all the time. We’ve gotta walk before we run. Once we’re jogging and then running, then we can grow this thing faster. Right, but I don’t wanna just go throw a hundred thousand dollars onto Google on a campaign that’s brand new of something I’ve never run and just churned through $90,000 on my client’s money before I figure out only the 10 was performing

So we try to start smaller and grow into it over the course of the first 30 days. But to answer your question, every single client that I ever take on, I tell them the first 30 days that you work with me are gonna be the worst 30 days you ever have. Because if I don’t have a very good data set, I’m again flying the plane blind

Month two should be 10 times better than month one. By the time we [00:26:00] get a full 90 days of data, we should really know what we’re doing. So once you get into month three, four, and beyond, things get much clearer because we are much more educated as far as what the data looks like and making decisions based off of those accordingly

Simon: Right. No, I love that. So it’s what, what seems to be coming through is the importance of data and then how you respond to it. Yes. As opposed to just, like you say, flying blind

Chans: Yep. And patience. You know, that’s a hard thing for business owners to write checks and not see returns. Right. It’s, it’s a hard thing to swallow

So I really try to under promise and over-deliver right. And set up expectations very low. And, and look, I have clients that they, they start out absolutely terrible. And then by the end of it, it’s a great thing. I have clients that start out and just, for whatever reason, we hit the nail on the head and, and we’ve got a good data set and they just crush it right outta the gate and never look back. Any, and everything happens between that

Simon: So gimme an example of one that [00:27:00] perhaps didn’t work out. Okay. So like maybe a, , a learning experience where you, where you look back and you go, you know what? It wasn’t great then, but at least I learned something from it

Chans: Yeah, there’s one that recently comes to mind for me. It’s actually a good friend of mine who’s a performance coach and we put on a huge free event and he brought heavy hitter names, I mean people with millions of followers on Instagram for free

And the concept was to build up as big of a following as we possibly could get as many email addresses as we possibly could. Put on the event for free, and then cross sell them on the back end. And, That’s exactly what we did. The problem is it didn’t really sell that well, and this is where being a marketer can be frustrating

In my opinion. This is only my opinion. I don’t have anything to prove this factually, but we drove the lowest cost per lead of any campaign that we’ve run in years, and that’s just because he had star power, literally like star power speakers. It was a virtual event. It was free. So we drove the lowest cost per lead that we’ve driven on any [00:28:00] campaign in years, but it didn’t convert into sales

In my opinion, what we were trying to sell was way too expensive. It was way overpriced. So as a marketer, right, and this is a, I’ll shift outta his example. I know if we’re on a podcast, you can’t see me, but this Yeti coffee cup right here, okay? If I can buy this Yeti Coffee cup from Yeti for $20 and somebody else is selling it for 50, okay? Is it my fault that they can’t sell it for 50 as the marketer? Or is it their fault because they’ve got the cut price $30 higher than the market? Right. So when I look back on it, I think that his service was priced way too high compared to the market, and therefore it did not convert and sell. So, you know, when I look back on that, and it’s not to point the finger at them, we learned lessons through that as well, but I wish that we would’ve

Strategically thought of something else to cross sell with. Other than that premium product, I wish we would’ve had a lower barrier of entry sale that was [00:29:00] easier to get people in the method of paying, and then maybe down the road try to cross sell them into this higher ticket item. Basically, I feel like we went from zero to 100 too fast

We should have went from, you know, zero to 20 and tried to get somebody to buy at that price point and then growing into it from there. So again, you know, would it have made a difference? I don’t know. But in, in my opinion, you know, that’s, that’s kind of where, you know, one that we recently lost on that, that hurt a little bit just because it was, it was such a success on the front end, that it was a disappointment

We didn’t sell many on the back end

Simon: Well, first of all, thank you for sharing that

Chans: Sure

Simon: I think what’s, what it’s, it’s, it’s interesting. You , you remind me, I, I, I, I have a friend who’s a. Is also kind of like a Life Coach, Performance Coach

Chans: Okay

Simon: And, he had a program online that he released, during the Pandemic and

Chans: Okay

Simon: Similar kind of thing. He had, a, a, a free webinar that he was running as a, as a, he was telling me, so a free webinar was running as a. Initially it was done live and then [00:30:00] has never greened with a, which drove people to a landing page

Chans: Mm-hmm

Simon: And then he had him parallel to that, just a kind of a, a free ebook that he was running as a, as a, as a lead magnet

Okay. And the, the free stuff, people couldn’t get a hold of it quick enough. Okay. It was like going like, you know, hot cakes. Alright. But people weren’t taking their credit cards out at the point when they came to the paywall, they were like, okay, I’ve got my freebie. I’m off. Okay. And and I think what he actually ended up doing, was selling the ebook for like a super low amount

Chans: Mm-hmm

Simon: seven bucks, 11. It was something really small and that completely changed the amount of leads that he got or the amount of kind of clicks and people signing up. Drops dramatically, but the amount of conversion into the, you know, onto the program rose significantly. And I think it was just because in, in, in that [00:31:00] scenario, it was just that, where initially he thought, well, the more people that I can get eyeballs on me and on the things or whatever, then some of ’em are gonna buy

Unfortunately, he was just attracting the wrong people. He was just attracting freebie hunters

Chans: Yeah, there’s a couple lessons you can grab from that. Number one, you just hit, it could have been the wrong people, right? He could have got the wrong people. Number two, he could have, you know, a sales problem where the product was priced too high

Like the scenario that I just gave when that’s, that’s just my opinion. I could be wrong. But the other thing is, is where people really mess up in these things is they’re way too shortsighted. You know, they run something like this and it, it fails according to their expectation or what they hoped. And they pull the plug and they stop

The best thing that he can do is go give away another free something or make another, you know, low dollar ebook, lower, lower level of entry cost, and keep building that pipeline and building it, and building it and building it, and email marketing over and over and over again, and providing value to these people for [00:32:00] free over and over and over again

And eventually they bite. Right. You get these small percentages that bite. So it is a numbers game. Now, if you’ve got a million email addresses of the wrong people, then it is what it is. But in my opinion, if they, if they were interested in your free offer and or they bought your low cost of entry product, They’re interested in you

They’re interested in what you have to offer, you’ve gotta convert them. But that can be a marathon, not a sprint. You could get an email address today that doesn’t buy from you for two years, but you’ve gotta stay consistent with them. You can’t just quit. That’s the key. It’s the marathon, not a sprint concept behind it

Simon: Yeah. And absolutely. Do you know what? You remind me of, there was a guest we had on some time ago, who was an email marketer. His name’s Eli Delaney. He’s an incredible, email marketer and he has the system where once you’re kind of in his world, you’re basically going through an automated email program for like three [00:33:00] years

Chans: Yeah

Simon: And, every, and he’s just constantly adding to it. Constantly adding to it. And he said that he, at the time we were talking, he’d recently made a sale to someone. And the reason why he made a sale to that person when they were conversing and whatever , it tracked back to his father putting on a link like nine years ago

Chans: Wow

Simon: And just still be, and then the father had never bought, never spent a dime with him, right?

Chans: Yeah

Simon: Who just stayed, got value, got value, got value. His son was probably still in , I don’t know, grade school. you know?

Chans: Yeah

Simon: Where his father clicked on that link and his sons now in a business needed some help

Hey dad, who’d you know? Oh, well this, this guy I’ve been following for some time

Chans: Sure

Simon: Pioneers. You know? So you are right, it’s a marathon,

Chans: Yeah, you’re, no, I mean, it’s

Simon: absolutely

Chans: Yeah. And that’s all marketing. You know that that’s every method of marketing that there is. Like people are so shortsighted and, and I get it. As a [00:34:00] business owner, it’s painful to write checks and not see a, a return, right? I mean, that’s not what we think of marketing as, but the key is the consistency, right? And sticking with it for the long run. It will pay off, it will pay off. And you might make some bad calls, you might make some good calls, but at the end of the day, you’ve gotta look at the body of work in, in months and years, not weeks, right? Like this is big picture stuff. So one campaign fails. You gotta learn from it, take it on the chin and go after the next one. Hopefully the next one makes up for what you lost on that one and this one. Right. And I’ve seen it happen, you know, a ton of times. I mean, I’ve got clients I’ve had for years and years and years

Trust me, we’ve had plenty of failures in that process. It’s part of it, that is marketing. You know, people, people just think, how I wrote a check for 10 grand, I’ve gotta make 50. And it just, it simply doesn’t work like that all the time. The key is, is over time to get to that point where you’re consistently, you’ve got enough build up

Where that flow is there. But, but again, that takes patience [00:35:00] and, and a budget and sticking to it for the long run

Simon: Absolutely. It’s like, in the recent Elvis movie, Tom Hanks, who plays Tom Parker,

Chans: yeah

Simon: Says, it doesn’t matter if you do 10 stupid things, as long as you do one smart thing

Chans: There you go

Simon: Maybe the numbers don’t quite work , but it’s like you’re saying, you know, if you, if you are, if you’re investing money in marketing, not everything you do is gonna be a success, but the things that aren’t successful are gonna make up for and then give you that ROI

Chans: Yep. That’s, that’s the thought process

Simon: Right? Great stuff. Okay. So you told me about, one that didn’t go quite well, that you learnt from. Give me a success story

Chans: Oh boy. Where do I start with this? I’ve got a lot more of these, thankfully . I can give you an example of a, an old school client that I talk about sometimes. They, they approached us, they’ve probably been with me for eight years now and they manufacture ultra high pressure homogenizers

Okay?

Simon: Don’t even know what that is

Chans: And let me tell [00:36:00] you, they’ve been with me for eight years and I think I’m still learning . So super interesting family owned company outta Boston and, great people. There, there were , they were foreigners that the, the mom and dad are, you know, first generation Americans and just a, a great people

I’ve been on site to meet them. Great business, but small. So there are manufacturers of high pressured homogenizers, but not ultra high pressured homogenizers. Okay

Simon: Right

Chans: And there are like eight to 10 of these companies on earth. Not just in the United States, but on Earth. And when they came to us, they had a website that was like 10, 15 years old

They’ve been here, you know, they, they’d had this business for a long time, very small. but it was so ancient. It was so, so terrible. Everything about it was bad. They’d never done anything like this before. So we built ’em, a brand new website, redesigned it, like essentially brought this. What I called ugly business, you know, to market

And now their website gets [00:37:00] tens of thousands of visitors a month. They have more leads that they can even begin to handle. They’re still trying to scale into the lead flow, you know? Eight years later, they’re still trying to scale into it. And you know, we have just absolutely reinvented that business and their revenue is multiples of what it was when we took them on

And here’s the best part about it. They spend $4,000 a month with us

Simon: Wow

Chans: so they started out as like a 3 million dollar company with us, and I think they do about 15 now, and they spend four grand a month

Simon: Wow

Chans: And the reason it’s so, so cheap and to make that movement that they did is it was a very, you know, small, tight niche

Right. Very vertical business that. Doesn’t have a ton of competition. So with a smaller amount of money, we were able to take a smaller amount of product essentially, and make a much larger impact. I have other clients at $4,000. I mean, they couldn’t even, you know, start the process to work with us for that

But here these guys are, and they do [00:38:00] really, really well with that type of budget, and they’ve been on the same budget for all this time and it’s absolutely amazing for them. And I don’t think that they will ever leave us . They should be with us for the long run at this point

Simon: Wow, that’s great. Fantastic

So chance, tell me what are your top three tips for somebody to be successful in marketing their business or in working with a digital marketing?

Chans: Yeah, I think the first thing you know, I’ve really been on a, a bit of a, a tangent lately calling out entrepreneurs before they work with digital marketing agencies

And the reason is, is because being in this industry I see so much bad work. And this isn’t a pat on my back. This isn’t me trying to say I have the best agency out there that there’s, there’s a lot of good ones. Unfortunately, my number is 19 out of 20 digital marketing agencies are terrible. I get ahold of their work

I, I just took on a client about three months ago now, a timeshare exit company gets people outta timeshares. The digital marketing agency that was handling their account. They were spending [00:39:00] $350,000 a month and they were actually running ads on how to get a timeshare, not how to get out of them. And they’d been with them for three years spending that kind of money

Hundreds of thousands of dollars went into. Literally a keyword that is the exact opposite of what the service that the business provides is. So I see things like, nothing even surprises me anymore. So rule number one that I would give is understand digital marketing, just on a basic 1 0 1 level. Google it

Understand what a cost per lead is, understand what click through rate is. Understand what conversion rates are. You can just go Google this stuff, take a crash course, read something for 30 to 60 minutes and understand what the hell you’re talking about so you can actually ask educated questions to make sure that they know what they are doing

That would be number one. Number two, identify a budget. So I have a lot of businesses that come to me and they want, you know, a hundred thousand dollar a month job and they have $2,500 to fund [00:40:00] it. It just, it’s, it’s not gonna happen. It’s not gonna work. And I usually tend to not work with them

I’ll let them go or try to guide them in another direction. But you have to identify a budget going into these things. This isn’t, this is a pay to play game. You know, I’ve got everybody from, you know, 2,500 bucks to hundreds of thousands of dollars a month. They’re not all the same. They’re very different businesses

How we market them are very different. The strategies are very different. What’s involved is very different. But I can’t get inside of your business and tell you how much money that you have, right? I mean, I can. But it’s probably better that you do that and understand that. So understand a budget, you know, that would be number two

And the last one is patience. We’ve kind of already hit on this a couple times in this phone call. You need to understand that there could be some ugly months, and especially in the beginning, it, it could be a little bit rough. And I’m not saying always, I’m not trying to be all doom and gloom, but, You know, sometimes, especially if there is zero history, there is zero data and an agency has to truly start from the ground level and build a foundation up from there

[00:41:00] It, it can be a little rough out of the gate until we get a feel for the land and kind of establish a rhythm. With how this is going to look and how we can actually make it work well. So patience is something that is also very important. It’s not, like I said, it doesn’t always just hit the ground running and explode and drive a ton of leads or sales, whatever the case might be

It can take a little bit of time. But those three things would be the, the three, I would say the business owners should absolutely do. But number one is the most important. People need to understand what they’re, who they’re hiring and why

Simon: Right. Okay. Great stuff. And what’s next for you? And for the business

Chans: You know, I found myself, I, I’m doing a lot more speaking engagements lately. So, which, which I, I kind of have a love hate relationship with candidly. You know, to get paid thousands of dollars to go speak to people and essentially market myself is a pretty cool thing. So, you know, , it’s, it’s fun from that perspective, but I’m a, I’m a, I’m a husband, I’m a father

I’ve got two and five year old daughter, so, The travel part of it, I, I do not like at all. I’m at a point where I’m [00:42:00] only flying private like half the time, so flying, you know, in airports and layovers and, you know, I’m in St. Louis, Missouri. We don’t have a lot of direct flights, a lot of places, so I wish I could justify, you know, flying private everywhere that I went, but I’m not quite there yet

So the travel is beating me down a little bit, but I, I am enjoying the speaking. I’ve also, over the last year I’ve started coaching young entrepreneurs. You know, either on like a retainer basis or they just pay me by the hour and book in my, in my calendar when they have questions and things like that

I, I put a monetary thing on that it’s more of a passion thing, but I do bill for it just because I think that it holds them accountable and make sure that they’re prepared for those calls and that they are utilizing their time, just like it’s my time as well. But, you know, getting a little bit more into the coaching, I don’t promote

It’s a passion thing. I just, I love entrepreneurship and I love helping Young up and coming green young in their journey, however you wanna frame that, business owner. So I’ve been doing a lot of that. [00:43:00] And then, you know, just, just scaling my company and, you know, I’m going through a lot of things now here

You know, as I remember, we were a six figure mark for a lot a year, going to seven figure mark for a lot a year now. We’re crossing eight figures this year, and it’s just one of those things that management’s coming into play. I’m having to learn. About how to take this next step and this next piece of growth that we’re in right now

So really being a student of the game, leaning on, you know, my mentors to make sure I can continue to grow this thing in an educated way. And there’s just a lot of challenges, you know, I have a mentor by the name of Andy Priscilla. He’s got a billion dollar company. Super smart guy. But he, he told me years ago we were chatting and he told me years ago, he said, look, man, the problems never ever go away

They just change and the magnitude of them is much larger. And I’m seeing and understanding that, you know that in, in this piece of my entrepreneur journey now. So, you know, it’s one of those things that I, I love it. I’ve learned to, as I call it, embrace the suck. Like things are gonna suck. Like times are gonna be hard

You just have to embrace [00:44:00] it and lean into those things. And I’ve conditioned myself over the last decade to do this stuff. So I’m excited to attack the things that I’m trying to do right now within my company, but, Those are the big things. And then, you know, just spending as, as much time with my family as I can around all this, you know, life

It doesn’t matter how much money you have or how successful you are, any of those things if you’re not happy and you can’t and spend it with the people that you love. So trying to make sure that I’m focusing on those things as well, as much as I possibly can, and, and treating that just as importantly as anything else because it truly is the most important thing

Simon: Absolutely. Absolutely. So if people wanted to reach out and work with you or with the organization, how can they best do that?

Chans: Sure. Well, I mean, I’ve got a lot of different ways. I mean, my personal website is CB Weber with one B, so cb weber.com and I’m on Instagram, I’m Chance, chance B Weber, so c h a n s b w E B E R

I get dms in there every day. I try to help them get back to them as much as I can, again, usually in the mornings. And then my company website is Agile and [00:45:00] co.com. So all written out agile and co.com can absolutely be reached through there. And if you fill out a contact form, my team usually funnels it to me in some way, shape, or form

And, and I can talk to people that way as well

Simon: That’s fantastic. Well chance, I’ve learned so much in this last kind of half hour or so, and, not just about the importance of data, but the importance of responding to it and the systems. That need to be there in order for that to take place and all the other good stuff we’ve talked about has been an absolutely fascinating conversation

So, Chans Weber, thank you so much for joining us here on the conference room

Chans: Thank you, Simon. I appreciate it

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